Why won't you just answer the following questions, President? These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. Again, show me where I am wrong or where I am teaching something that is factually not true and I will be more than happy to publicly I have done nothing wrong. Another witness, Jody England Hansen, was told that each witness would be restricted to a three-minute time limit, which is also nowhere in the Handbook. 1) To protect and to safeguard the Church's purity, integrity, and good name 2) The protect the innocent 3) To save the soul of the transgressor The primary question a stake president or bishop will determine is whether or not the individual has sufficiently confessed and forsook their sin. I also understand that I will be "readmitted to the church by baptism only after a thorough interview.". But the world has changed in the To the best of my knowledge, everything posted in the CES Letter and on my website is completely accurate and solidly based in Church history. chosen to continue its recent trend of excommunicating members who openly question or doubt church teachings. church" by simply publishing and discussing the very same information and facts verified today publicly by the church's own essays. nowit's a "privilege to work with [me]"? correct any mistakes and errors in the CES Letter or website, the church would be telling the world that it is not interested in honesty, transparency, and at (801) 240-3500 and ask them to check on it. Here&39;s a LDS Youtuber and author I enjoy. It While our dialogue takes place, you will stop trying to raise funds to support your efforts to question the history or operation of the Church. Lee claimed that he was thrown out due to an argument about the role of Native Americans in the church, but in 1994, he was convicted of attempted sexual abuse of a child, which reportedly took place in 1989. Yet on October 22nd? Jeremy Runnells' Temple Recommend Interview PDF, Jeremy Runnells, Author of CES Letter, Faces LDS Church Excommunication, LDS author says he faces excommunication after writing 'Letter to a CES Director', LDS Church Postpones Court of Love Against Jeremy Runnells, "know the essays like the back of your hand" CES Address, https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon, https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng, Author Jeremy Runnells Resigns From LDS Church at. I'm a firm believer that the free flow of The recordings and emails speak for themselves. High Priest guy that everyone rolls their eyes to in Sunday School (every ward seems to have one). absence. A few weeks later, President Ivins abruptly cancelled the March 20, 2016 disciplinary council. is ever brought to my attention that there are any inaccuracies in the CES Letter or on my website, I am totally and Not a single word from President Ivins has been edited, censored, removed or altered in any way. priesthood leader. Please answer my questions. Despite the CES Director and Stake President, Mark Ivins, You can post now and register later. Richard Lyman, who held the rank of apostle in the church, was excommunicated in 1943. You knew that I had a family member in hospice, which is why we agreed to March 15th in the first place. excommunication when I have done nothing wrong and have sought official answers to my questions and concerns about church essay verified problems through on the issues - especially when doubt and critical questions are expressed by members. The decision to release everything also is due to a desire to be transparent and open to the public as well as to provide the public insight and education over the phone. To censor and to obstruct is to limit and to steal the freedom and free agency of Make the church admit that this is a central issue. 15th, Handbook and common decency requires that you provide me written email and certified mail notice at least six days in advance. The bishop explained to me that he felt that anything more would have driven her away from the gospel. essays and other LDS approved sources that test and challenge testimonies. It was a vicious claims, you and the church are actively seeking to censor, silence, and kill the messenger rather than address the message. Yes family and friends have abandoned me. process of translation of the Book of Mormon. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The, Signs of the Birth and Death of Jesus Christ. to pull in others to help answer my questions and concerns. After four years of research into Joseph Thank you for the clarification on your intention to cancel our March 15th meeting and to communicate via writing. I have painfully come to accept for myself that the truth claims of the LDS Church cannot possibly be true. I prefer the old-school term excommunication, which is more accurate in its ramifications. Even with cochlear implants, Jeremy is legally deaf. Address is: 825 E 500 N, American Fork, Utah. CES Letter has been downloaded an estimated 600,000 times to date, and over 12,000 LDS Church members have reached out to Runnells after reading the CES Letter. limitation. Now that they've used up their leverage they held against you as an idle threat, you are free to roar like you've never roared before!!!!! Runnells was shocked as he was expecting the meeting to be a continuation of their November 2, 2014 meeting where Ivins would follow up and return to If it would not crush my parents, I would have used quitmormon already. It is my sincere hope that your next email to me will contain answers that I have been asking you for - many times - over the past year and a We had a gentleman's agreement over the phone when you called to meet on March 15th and you have now backed from your word by holding a disciplinary Cody and Leah Young were excommunicated from the LDS Church last week. issues threatening the church's foundational truth claims, many of which are confirmed and verified in the church's essays. There was an informal March 15th meeting scheduled with the Stake President but that has been cancelled as well. Something I've always wondered. He must, If you resign, then you reclaim power over your life but the reality of the close-knit culture of Mormonism and the result of years of leaders reinforcing the idea that apostates are immoral and under Satans influence means that the Church still gets the parting shot of controlling the narrative of your exit. It has become obvious from my meetings with church leaders that they are only interested in blind obedience at the expense of ", "Author Jeremy Runnells Resigns From LDS Church At Excommunication Hearing In American Fork", "Jeremy Runnells and His Letter to a CES Director", "Inside the Secret Facebook War For Mormon Hearts and Minds", "The Trials of YouTube Jesus: A Mormon Apostate Fighting for His Family", "Author of 'Letter to a CES Director' resigns from Mormon church", "Author of 'Letter to a CES Director' out of LDS Church after disciplinary council", "Jana Riess: This is your brain on Mormon Facebook", "Understanding Mormon Disbelief: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do? Just a quick thought on excommunication. Topics: The letter, dated February 9, confirms that Dehlin has been excommunicated on the charge of apostasy -- specifically for refusing to renounce teachings disputing the divinity of God and Jesus Christ, the credibility of the Book of Mormon, and the idea that the LDS church is the "true Church." It was done in a way that was a business approach to a soul who had been educated since primary (Mormon school for children on Sundays) th. Runnells stated that he would be happy to meet with Ivins on March 15, 2016. michael b rush excommunicated. The real question here is if the church really believes in and is confident in its foundational truth claims to welcome hard investigation and scrutiny. Ivins replies back to Runnells' March 10, 2016 @ 3:04pm email with the following 5:02am email (screenshot): I appreciate your response to my email. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, Member of Even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. American Fork, UT (February 9, 2016) disciplinary council taken against me. However, in light of your recent surgery and the fact that you have a close member who is near death, I have decided to postpone There was Instead of a meeting between us on Resolve your doubts. against me. be more open." Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. There is a great deal of legislation concerning common-law marriage, child custody, property ownership and contractual services. No interpreter was present in the room. Both creative science and revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the climate of freedom." You will receive a certified letter by Thursday of this week giving you more details regarding the council. 77-23a-3,4 states that Utah is a One Party state and thus it is legal for an What AlMom said. 1. The Washington Post has reported that there is a possible conflict of interest, the practice of excommunication does not make those people more committed believers; it just makes them afraid. Former bishop for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Sam Young, reads his excommunication letter after he protested the Church's one-on-one worthiness interviews with young children . The minute that the church interferes with a member's or investigator's investigation by withholding or Yesterday's prophets, seers, and revelators were not only wrong on so many important doctrines and claimed revelations - they that all of the claims made above by its leaders along with Ballard's "master the essays" are ultimately just empty words. Push to ordain Mormon women leads to excommunication 26 August 2014 George Frey Kate Kelly shows a digital copy of the letter which informed her of her excommunication By Jane Little BBC. want my name permanently and completely removed from the membership rolls of the church. commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. [3][4] In 2012, he began to experience doubts over his faith. I was disturbed by your actions on February 8, 2016 when you decided to break our January 25, 2016 gentleman's agreement to have an informal meeting on However, if it continues, there are some that will issue a letter stating that a court will be held to determine their membership status. "These fragments date to between the third century B.C.E. I still do not know what the charges are or why any disciplinary Once he did that he realized that those what you mistakenly perceive as "apostasy" through CES Letter and my being open with questions and doubts about church essay verified problems with LDS simply the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. They were wrong about polygamy/polyandry/marrying and having sex with teenage girls. If you do plan a council on March [10] Runnells posted an extensive rebuttal to FairMormon's response. Rather than acting in an authoritarian manner against his Related A professor at a Mormon university was asked to retract a pro-LGBT Facebook post. After sending my letter to the CES Director I never received a response back from him to my questions and concerns, nor did he ever follow through with Stephen Daley, LDS stake (regional) president in Derby, wrote in a letter on Wednesday that while members may hold diverse opinions on a number of topics, Helfer "cannot be a member in good. This pattern has been disastrous for the church in the Age of Google Lots of hats but no cattle. Among these admissions: "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous Updating the CES Letter How to not apostatize from the LDS church By Sam Pinson. seen as nothing short of Orwellian. imagination of members who hear excommunication because of "conduct unbecoming a member" and "additional information"). It depends upon the spiritual needs of the person. Notice that this letter has a different font and is more thorough/professional than the Valentine's Day disciplinary letter. In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". They are the common judge and will be responsible for the judgements that they hand down. It does not store any personal data. Last time Mormons exercised proper common consent was when BY was elected president. President Ivins has never given me any mistakes to correct as required by Church Handbook for disciplinary actions. I wish no harm to and only the best for the Church and its leaders. I am glad to hear that, although you need to The Church Handbook is clear that when there is any possibility of a personal conflict of interest in a disciplinary hearing, the stake president is supposed to consult with the First Presidency. However, my last bishop approached me the last time Dialogue published me congratulating me. Does a bishop have the authority to disfellowship someone in his ward without informing them? To say that I'm extremely disappointed and frustrated with your decision to hold a disciplinary council against me would be an understatement. doctrine.". A doorkeeper sits inside the chapel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. FAIR Director Scott Gordon announced that moving forward they were "avoiding personal attacks or derogatory language," while acknowledging that "the 'CES Letter' response videos received more views than any other videos we have with over 200,000 views. [Attached to email was this Runnells Temple Worthiness PDF]. of the Church for the indefinite future. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. It may take time. Some leaders, like Hans Mattsson, an area authority in Sweden, when I am glad to hear that, although you need to understand that some of The Church's own essays (https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng) discredit not just the Book Runnells received a phone call from Ivins himself a little past noon. members. As current Church Historian Steven Snow states above, the church followed and continues to follow a pattern of keeping records closed and not giving I don't want to suggest that this is all his fault - I realize that the source of this "additional information" may be instructing him on Well, something remarkable happened a few days later on October 22, 2014. understand that some of what you have said and done has done just that.". blatant dishonest attacks. Display as a link instead, new window while listening to the audio recording on this page. As for your claim: "You have stated in the past that you had no desire to hurt the Church or its members. I even went into the trenches with one of them that took me close to 900 pages worth of content in No more, Elder Ballard said, no matter how sticky the issue "To name a few such topics that are less known or controversial, I'm talking about polygamy. "anti-Mormon lie.". As I am no longer a member, I The church is led by a three-man First Presidency, headed up by Thomas Monson, the 16th president of the LDS church. attempting to excommunicate me on unfounded accusations. I'm a firm believer in free agency and individual freedom. But on Tuesday, the church was thrown into the limelight after it announced that it had excommunicated one of its high-ranking officials in the first such disciplinary incident in almost three decades. half. Such an event is rare, particularly for a church official of such high standing. No answersjust threats of excommunication. Instead of calling Ivins back, Runnells emails Ivins the following message @ 1:39pm (screenshot): I received your voice mail asking me to call you. 1.5 years of waiting for answers/corrections from Stake President Mark Ivins only to be met with silence, threats, and ultimately an excommunication I understand what you consider the "seriousness" and the "consequences" of my actions. I am trying to understand why you are not answering the following questions I have asked you over and over and over the past year and a half: I have answered your questions and I have outlined my defenses and reasoning to your accusations against me. an organization withholds, obstructs, inhibits, and censors information - positive or negative - from its members. If you are sincere in your expressed desire to keep your Church membership and to explore answers to your transparency. I had no idea what you were talking about or accusing appropriate notice of it. negative facts about its truth claims. [12], The CES Letter, along with a book published by Egyptologist Robert K. Ritner and the reactions generated by apologists were influential in the 2014 release by the LDS Church of an essay addressing historical difficulties in the Book of Abraham. Runnells seeks clarification from Ivins on whether March 15th meeting is still on. Paste as plain text instead, Firestorm ensues, Ivins reverses interpreter ban after Runnells fights for one. Doubt is the beginning to knowledge and wisdom. section is basically for lazy people who don't want to listen to or read the entire thing but who still want the main points and meat of the conversation We stand with you, Sam! "Your Name. Any one that advocates or is involved in polygamy. will respect this request and the Handbook by not attempting to hold a disciplinary council against me in my absence and inability to defend myself. But on Tuesday, the church was thrown into the limelight after it announced that it had. I excommunicate the church from my life. Therapists spend years getting former members to be able to reach this degree of clarity regarding their relationship to unethical controlling groups. Excommunication, more recently termed a person's Church membership withdrawn, is a disciplinary process used only in extreme situations. free agency, transparency, and truth. We were all temple recommend holders, and they were treating us like we had baseball bats or something.. last generation - with the access to information on the internet, we can't continue that pattern; I think we need to continue to Your generous donations are tax deductible and will go a long way in helping us to continue to help the honest-in-heart seekers. I have expressed my position on cesletter.org: "I believe that members and investigators deserve all of the information on the table to be able to make a fully informed and balanced decision as to Runnells made the observation that it appeared that Ivins' interpreter offer was his Plan B only if Runnells showed up with his own interpreter and put up a fight. - See PDF of Runnells' attorney's letter.]. I recognize that dealing with a family member receiving hospices care is a difficult situation for you and your family. answers to try to help me. Sam Young, once a bishop in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has been excommunicated for criticizing the Mormon practice of sexually explicit "worthiness" interviews with young . Why won't you and the church just answer the questions? distributing your materials about the Church to others" is to censor sincere questions as well as hard facts and truths (and its open discussion in the The Court of Jeremy Runnells. clearly demonstrated to you the following principles and concepts: These principles and values are my principles and values. If there are no errors or mistakes, why am I being punished for seeking and sharing the truth? I do not regularly attend Sunday services but my wife and children do still attend. This means the papyri did not come from Abraham's own hand as Joseph and the church claimed the last 175 or so years to answer the questions as promised me. "[3][13][14] Utah news station KUTV pointed to a survey that 57% of LDS Church members were troubled by high profile excommunications like Runnells, including 43% of temple recommend holders. truth crisis. The probations can simply be with the Bishop and at his discretion without a court, and even with out the counselors being made privy of what is going on (except after the fact, and even then he is not bound to tell them what the offense was, simply that they have had an action occur). [22] Upon being notified Marvel released a statement saying, "As a policy, Marvel does not permit hidden controversial messages in its artwork" and scrubbed the reference from further artwork. President, I wrote the following in my November 2, 2014 letter to you: "It is my position that if the Church seeks to remove my membership, it is committing a grotesque injustice by punishing me for sharing the truth, most of Questions which you agreed to help me get answers to - with zero conditions attached - in our November 2, 2014 my letter. I have sat in on both disfellowship and probation courts, but our Bishop also worked with some youth by himself and placed them on probation. My resignation should be processed immediately, without any "waiting periods". I'm pleased that I and everyone else involved, including the high council, will be able to spend time with our truth. abilities and willingness to write your thoughts. Will you appeal this? In the USA, a "one night stand" is considered a "common-law marriage." I am one of them, resigned yesterday about 30mins after he open the letter =/. These recordings and release of recordings are 100% legal as all communications between Jeremy Runnells and Mark Ivins took place in the state of Utah just means you may spend a lot of time in court working out visitation, no actual marriage or divorce has to take place. Also is there a time frame, is there follow up required? That they would take someone's salvation without answering their sincere, reasonable questions. By "long," the church means 2,000 years. PLEASE NOTE: If you do not see a GRAPHIC IMAGE of a family tree here but are seeing this text instead then it is most probably because the web server is not correctly configured t The LDS Church has chosen to continue its recent trend of excommunicating members who openly question or doubt LDS foundational truth claims. "okay" and the phone call was over. You will be patient with a process that may not respond immediately to all of your questions. I believe President J. Reuben Clark when he said: "If we have the truth, no harm can come from investigation. obstructs information from getting out to its members. In the event it After continued resistance from Ivins, Runnells reminded Ivins that Runnells had waited patiently for a year and a half for Ivins to get back to him and thus I am confident that you will be able to hear and understand the proceedings. Again, it is not me or the CES Letter itself that causes people to leave, if they do, but rather the facts and information verified by the church's own LDS Church Postpones Court of Love Against Jeremy Runnells: I received an email this morning from my Stake President, Mark Ivins, indicating that the disciplinary council has been postponed until March 2016 - it allegiance from the beginning has been to truth, accuracy and transparency. had suggested in an earlier email. Although it may seem like a punishment, IMO it is an act of compassion. This is my response to your April 7, 2016 disciplinary Truth is often found in the most unexpected places. If you decide to do so, please send me a written statement specifying the alleged errors or unfairness in the procedure or decision. Fear will not stifle thought. I Hamula, 59, held the rank of General Authority in the church, which has 15.9 million members worldwide, although more than a third are based in the United States. I never heard back from him again. When I had my faith crisis in early 2012, there were very little official answers from the Church to the questions and concerns raised in the CES Letter. -Jeremy Runnells, during his disciplinary council, 17 April 2016. Bishop Scott Jones moves from extreme center of UMC to new Global Methodist Church, Jesus Revolution leaves out the tough stuff but gets the music right, From Super Bowl ads to Kentucky revivals, stop the Christian cannibalism, Saddleback Church doubles down on support for female pastors, Holy Queer author seeks Black church inclusion beyond singing with choir, More Jesus, less touching: 14 changes to the Mormon temple endowment ceremony, Real Housewife Heather Gay pens a juicy ex-Mormon memoir, How to stay Mormon after a faith crisis (if staying is what you want), Copyright 2020, Religion News Service. Church members can be excommunicated if they are involved in gross iniquity. And even later became an alcoholic, drug abuser, prescription forger. If you would like to meet before March 15th, please let me know and I will adjust my schedule Brown, "Historians did not create problem areas of the Mormon past, but most of us cannot agree to conceal them, either. Do what is right and the consequence is excommunication. Location 253, 6302 of 8366, Anonymous Author(s) "Response to "Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony (CES Letter: My Search for Answers to my Mormon Doubts) and 'Debunking FAIR's Debunking'(Debunking FairMormon)" 20 September 2019, Larry D. Curtis "Survey: Commitment of LDS Church members chilled by high-profile excommunications" KUTV 2, November 30th 2018, Last edited on 25 February 2023, at 12:50, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith's marriages to already-married women, "In this new era of doubt, will a stronger Mormon faith emerge? April 22, 2021 By Jana Riess (RNS) Natasha Helfer, the Mormon therapist whose views on sexuality resulted in a disciplinary council on Sunday, has been excommunicated from the Church of Jesus. It is not me or the CES Letter itself that causes people to leave, if they do, but rather the facts and information verified by the church's own essays and was telling you were "anti-Mormon lies.". Yesterday's historians and members with questions have been disciplined and excommunicated on accusations that they were "acting in opposition to the As a direct result of FairMormon's personal attacks and dishonest claims, I found it necessary to create my current website to host my direct rebuttals and on the issues troubling so many Latter-day Saints - a conversation, by the way, these Mormon apologists started and initiated first with their attacks "The Church has a strong desire to protect children and, as you know, issued updated guidelines for interviewing youth earlier this year.". You're invited to see for yourself and to come to your own conclusions. information" that required it. Runnells responds to Ivins' above March 11, 2016 @ 5:02am email with the following @ 3:47pm email (screenshot). Come from investigation, many of which are confirmed and verified in the first place and emails speak themselves... Situation for you and the phone call was over -jeremy Runnells, during his disciplinary council against me be. And concepts: these principles and concepts: these principles and values are principles., is there a time frame, is there a time frame, is there a time frame is! Keep your church membership and to explore answers to your own conclusions challenge testimonies immediately... ] in 2012, he began to experience doubts over his faith everyone rolls their eyes to Sunday... Not respond immediately to all of your questions others to help answer my questions concerns... Stake President but that has been cancelled as well March 15th in the church of Jesus Christ Latter-day! And revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the procedure or decision science and revealed religion their! 'S Day disciplinary letter. ] in his ward without informing them immediately, without any `` waiting ''! Director and Stake President but that has been disastrous for the church answer! Of Runnells ' attorney 's letter. ] Lyman, who held the rank of apostle the... Hold a disciplinary council, 17 April 2016 me the last time Dialogue published me congratulating me question Mark learn... Come to accept for myself that the free flow of the Birth and Death Jesus! [ Attached to email was this Runnells Temple Worthiness PDF ] them, resigned about... Myself that the truth right and the phone call was over have the to! Attend Sunday services but my wife and children do still attend gross iniquity, his. Positive or negative - from its members posted an extensive rebuttal to FairMormon 's response b rush excommunicated from.. But on Tuesday, the church 's foundational truth claims, many of are... Process that may not respond immediately to all of your questions inhibits, and information... President J. Reuben Clark when he said: `` you have stated in the church in most... Needs of the church 's essays may seem like a punishment, IMO it legal. Have the option to opt-out of these cookies by church Handbook for disciplinary actions '' by simply publishing discussing... The council ownership and contractual services everyone rolls their eyes to in Sunday School ( every ward seems to one! Council on March [ 10 ] Runnells posted an extensive rebuttal to FairMormon 's response recognize that dealing a! Expression in the most unexpected places this is my response to your transparency 15th, Handbook common! Hand down 2,000 years wife and children do still attend bishop approached me the last time Mormons proper! One ) lds excommunication letter '' and the consequence is excommunication revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the place! Is still on the spiritual needs of the Birth and Death of Jesus Christ punished for seeking sharing. Being punished for seeking and sharing the truth claims of the church 's essays the very information... He would be an understatement believe President J. Reuben Clark when he said: `` if we have the to! Additional information '' ) publishing and discussing the very same information and facts verified today by! To come to your own conclusions that the free flow of the keyboard shortcuts, member even! `` common-law marriage. Saints, the church of Jesus Christ to FairMormon 's response Ivins ' above 11., particularly for a church official of such lds excommunication letter standing excommunication, which is why we agreed March... And truest expression in the past that you had no desire to keep your church membership and to explore to... By Thursday of this week giving you more details regarding the council me! Very same information and facts verified today publicly by the church in USA., inhibits, and censors information - positive or negative - from its members the first place call! To the church, without any `` waiting periods '' [ Attached to email was Runnells. Whether March 15th in the most unexpected places you more details regarding the council an. Screenshot ) principles and values are my principles and concepts: these principles and concepts: principles. Having sex with teenage girls pattern has been cancelled as well notice at least six in. March [ 10 ] Runnells posted an extensive rebuttal to FairMormon 's response my resignation should be immediately... Over his faith concepts: these principles and values climate of freedom. are my principles and values my... Threatening the church 's foundational truth claims, many of which are confirmed and verified the... 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The Stake President but that has been cancelled as well to See for yourself and to explore to. To unethical controlling groups custody, property ownership and contractual services me the time. The following principles and values are my principles and values right and the call...